Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Road Racing World Action Fund "Air Fence" vs Recycled Bottle Bags

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • #16
    I contacted the Canadian Rider Safety Fund today.
    They said they zip tie the corners of the bags together to keep them from spreading out on impact. They also try to run two layers deep, staggered.
    They have them at at least 3 or 4 tracks up there and adding more.
    They said there are a few tracks in Florida and a few in Ohio and one in Washington.

    If a track is doing trackdays now....insurance would probably appreciate any additional impact material for bikes instead of bare tires or armco.

    I would like to think that dictating specific ingredient s is best....like only water or pop bottles that can squish. Milk jugs and antifreeze jugs, not allowed.
    Test this setup with a 4' x 2' steel plate welded to a 2" receiver on the back of a truck and slowly back into the bottle bag to see what it does. 2mph, then 5, then 7... eventually you would have similar energy transfer resembling a human at speed, without an actual human test (unless Tammy volunteers).

    If the choice is this or nothing, I'd take this.
    If this had a little better control of content and some testing....I call it plausable.
    Last edited by Spoot; 09-10-2018, 05:27 PM.
    WELCOME TO WiR - Enjoy

    Thank You to my personal, CCS Racing sponsors: WiRiders.com, Cycle Gear, TrackGraphix.com

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Spoot View Post
      They also try to run two layers deep, staggered.
      I was just going to suggest this. Looking at some of the pictures, some tracks aren't doing this and there are spaces. Implementation could be better at some of these places. 2 staggered layers is still going to be way cheaper than airfence.

      I don't think Blackhawk has all the airfence it needs. My buddy who bought my 300 race bike last year slid into the tires hard in turn 5 racing CCS last year and ended his season with an ankle injury. Even if turn 4 has airfence, there are still some places that could be supplemented with some bottle bags. Heck tires AND bottle bags could work in places.

      We could just say this: anywhere you see tires at a racetrack there could be bottlebags. Or a tires layer plus bottle bags as an added measure.



      John K - Appleton

      Comment


      • #18
        @ badger - I do recall hearing that BHF had all the airfence it needed...a couple years ago. I forgot about that.

        Looks like Airfence is now up to $4,500 per unit (or so)

        Just for discussion sake...how could bottle bags be better, without adding much cost?

        Here is a pdf from a Nebraska University, submitted to the transportation dept about developing better crash barrier for highways.
        Its 248 pages.
        https://mwrsf.unl.edu/researchhub/fi...-03-281-13.pdf

        I'm sure they can or have developed the greatest impact barriers for exit ramps and bridges...evar. Each barrier might cost $250,000 (I have no clue, but I'm sure it isn't cheap!)
        I think we've all seen these:
        barrier.JPG
        barrier2.JPG

        as a means to help reduce injuries when this happens:
        no_barrel.JPG



        But, then along comes some young, fool-hardy moron to suggest this:

        A plastic barrel and some water.


        barrel.JPG
        WELCOME TO WiR - Enjoy

        Thank You to my personal, CCS Racing sponsors: WiRiders.com, Cycle Gear, TrackGraphix.com

        Comment


        • #19
          I agree, I'd like to see more at T5, and a little more at T2. And of course, I'd rather crash into air fence. But for me it goes Air Fence > Bags of plastic bottles > Tire wall > Armco.
          You should see me in a headsock !

          Comment


          • #20
            The bulk bags are readily available, we get seed in them. Many bulk products such as morter and similar products will come in them. They are very strong, We pick up 2500 pound seed bags by just sticking pallet forks through the straps on top and picking up.
            Farm to Table Beef, Made Simple. Pasture Raised Beef, from our farm shipped to your door: www.scholzefamilybeef.com

            Comment


            • #21
              Originally posted by Badger View Post

              But seriously, would YOU want to crash into these versus airfence???
              No

              BUT there are many tracks I have been to that lack airfence. Seeing the alternative(putnam last turn) I would rather see bottle bags.

              We're not saying we want to replace the current airfence. But bottle bags can extend intermediate level protection for less likely crash zones.

              To develop the bag further only allow standard water bottles(by far the most used at the track) and say no to powerade or washer fluid bottles. Velcro or d ring straps to connect them and a little base weight to keep them from jumping.


              In my opinion airfence is being sold with the industrial/government price tag the same way hospitals and govt buildings get ripped off for a basic security camera system. I am very happy to see more options out there.
              2004 BMW R1100SA(street/Deer Spear)
              2008 Suzuki SV650 (track\race CCS AM#259)

              Comment


              • #22
                Is airfence patented? Is that why we haven't seen any competitors up until this point?
                You should see me in a headsock !

                Comment


                • #23
                  Well, there's Champion Products in the UK. Not sure about any others.
                  Matt J., Appleton
                  2015 Yamaha R3
                  Instagram- @motomatt_r3

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    So... How fast does Tammy's new scooter go...

                    Time for some testing.
                    John K - Appleton

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Zaph View Post
                      So... How fast does Tammy's new scooter go...

                      Time for some testing.
                      About 27 on the level. Tell me where the test facility is and I'll be there!
                      2004 BMW R1100SA(street/Deer Spear)
                      2008 Suzuki SV650 (track\race CCS AM#259)

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        I understand the cheaper alternative argument, and I think we all agree that real airfence is better. This just looks like a hack-job rather than an purposely engineered system. Would I rather hit this than armco? Yeah...

                        The liability issue is a real one, though. I work in the machine safety world so I know a little about liability. If there is a better alternative available and you choose to implement something less effective because it's cheaper, you are opening yourself up to liability if someone gets hurt due to this decision. With airfence being the clear standard out there, implementing bottle bags in place of airfence seems to fall into this category.

                        Tammy's idea of supplementing airfence with bottle bags in less likely impact zones does kind of make sense. Did I really just say something Tammy said makes sense???
                        Motovid CR
                        2006 Suzuki GSX-R750 (track warrior)
                        2004 Ducati ST4s (road warrior)
                        2009 Harley-Davidson Street Glide (Couch Potato-potato)

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Badger View Post
                          Did I really just say something Tammy said makes sense???
                          and now it is forever on the interwebs.

                          I'd like to see a more logical approach to the bottle bags. Consistent fill content. 2-3" foam in at the face (a cheap foam twinXL mattress cut in 1/2 and used in 2 bags. $50). zip-tie bags together doesn't seem too bad of an idea.
                          The main thing to do is some form of testing. At the on-set, it totally seems like a hack job idea....but the more I look at them, the more it seems viable.
                          If there were some sort of testing, it might look better to insurance companies for liability coverage.
                          WELCOME TO WiR - Enjoy

                          Thank You to my personal, CCS Racing sponsors: WiRiders.com, Cycle Gear, TrackGraphix.com

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            maybe get two of these made up and use gravity for the tests.

                            set them on the ground, face up.
                            have Tammy jump from single story garage roof.
                            then find a 2 story place to do it.

                            edit:
                            If Tammy did a free fall from 12 feet above the bottle bag, he would be travelling at 19.7 mph
                            24 feet free fall = 27.9 mph
                            36 feet free fall = 34 mph
                            --and trying to land on a 4'x4' or 4'x5' target could get a little hairy.

                            (using the splat calculator)
                            Last edited by Spoot; 09-12-2018, 08:28 PM.
                            WELCOME TO WiR - Enjoy

                            Thank You to my personal, CCS Racing sponsors: WiRiders.com, Cycle Gear, TrackGraphix.com

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              I'm still game. However you need to factor in the wind resistance of my sombrero which will bring my terminal velocity down a bit.

                              Originally posted by Badger View Post
                              Did I really just say something Tammy said makes sense???
                              If I remember correctly this is the second time this season that you've agreed with me!
                              2004 BMW R1100SA(street/Deer Spear)
                              2008 Suzuki SV650 (track\race CCS AM#259)

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Tammy View Post
                                If I remember correctly this is the second time this season that you've agreed with me!
                                I must be losing my edge...
                                Motovid CR
                                2006 Suzuki GSX-R750 (track warrior)
                                2004 Ducati ST4s (road warrior)
                                2009 Harley-Davidson Street Glide (Couch Potato-potato)

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X