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Honda Working On A Twin-Powered Caf? Racer?

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  • Honda Working On A Twin-Powered Caf? Racer?

    https://www.rideapart.com/articles/3...rumor-concept/

  • #2
    Why do they make the engines so big? I would love to see a smaller version. It was my understanding bigger engines put out higher emissions.

    They do this with the dual purpose bikes too. I never understood why manufacturers make them so big. They are so hard to upright if/when they fall over.
    Like me on Facebook at Yellow Duck Racing
    LB Photography, Apex Custom Coating, Track Graphix, Spears Racing

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    • #3
      Couple different things at play, one of which is water cooling which makes the whole package bigger.

      On the other side of it, a larger engine with a similar HP rating... well I don't know if it makes less emissions, but it makes less within the testing parameters. It's why we've been seeing a lot of bikes coming with an update in displacement but not hp, though you do get a torque curve that's friendlier at lower rpm. IIRC that's why the smaller Panigales got a bump, same with the Triumph Bonnevilles (at least the newer 900cc ones). The thing is, they measure the emissions at cold start, and *at speed* (125kph is one of them), so a bigger engine that's not working very hard is usually emitting less than a small engine at higher rpm. The bike as designed also has to be able to meet that spec after it's been run for 20,000km-35,000km depending on engine size. So there's another factor to being overbuilt.

      On dual-sport bikes, Honda recently went into this a bit when they released their new CRF450L. Those bikes are meant to be more durable, and run with much less maintenance so they're a bit overbuilt in order to achieve that. That and being road legal has requirements that something track/trail only don't have. Honda certainly does focus on this to the detriment of outright performance and weight, and they admit as such. The curse of building your company on the rep of friendliness and reliability, I guess.


      Anywho, it's all fun stuff (or not, I guess) and it isn't going to get any easier on the mfgrs, so expect bigger displacements without the hp to go with, giant exhausts w/ cats, snatchy throttles, etc to continue. Unless you go electric, of course.

      Matt J., Appleton
      2015 Yamaha R3
      Instagram- @motomatt_r3

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Capitalview View Post
        Why do they make the engines so big?

        MURICA!
        2004 BMW R1100SA(street/Deer Spear)
        2008 Suzuki SV650 (track\race CCS AM#259)

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        • #5
          Matt.. that CRF450L... it's a race bike with turn signals. It needs an oil change every 400 miles and a full top end rebuild about every 80-100 hours. It's not quite the 450 dual purpose you think it is, and a 100% different bike than the CRF250L which is a tame beginners bike that could run forever.

          Edit: oops, 600 mile oil change intervals officially. But that's street riding. Prepare to change the oil daily if you ride it at the track.
          Last edited by Zaph; 02-21-2019, 04:22 PM.
          John K - Appleton

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          • #6
            I think when Capview was talking dual sports being oversized he was discussing the AdvTouring bikes...GS, Africa Twin, Tenera, etc.

            The 450L is not in that category, nor is it over weight. I can't wait to get my hands on one. As Zaph says, it is a race bike with lights, and thats fine with me. I will probably test the intervals when i own one...i expect the Honda to hold up. All other street legal dual sports before from the Japanese have been BORING, under powered, overweight, shit suspension. Exotic stuff was the only option, until the 450L, I can't wait to try it...
            Farm to Table Beef, Made Simple. Pasture Raised Beef, from our farm shipped to your door: www.scholzefamilybeef.com

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            • #7
              Yup, what helmsman said. The adventure bikes are, usually, in the 1200cc range and so heavy. Try picking one of them up when it tips over going through a sand pit.
              Like me on Facebook at Yellow Duck Racing
              LB Photography, Apex Custom Coating, Track Graphix, Spears Racing

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              • #8
                The CRF450L probably wasn't the right example, but I thought it was a great lead into why DS bikes are heavy(ish) given that it's new, and considered heavy in it's class, and Honda did all that on purpose to help with emissions, road prowess/comfort, and Honda durability.

                It appears to be both cynical and true that the big ADV bikes are so bloated because people keep buying them that way, and those people spend way more time dreaming of adventures off road than they do taking them. Everything I mentioned before about displacements and emissions applies still but:

                There is a bright spot, if you wanted smaller/lighter ADV type bikes. The Versys-X 300 has been a hit, and it appears it's sales have mainly gone to older/more experienced riders who value the light weight. Same with the BMW G310GS. Honda even updated the CB500X to have a little more off-pavement prowess with more suspension travel, ground clearance, and a 19" front. It's still heavy, but it fits Hondas A2 build strategy so that's not changing anytime soon. Lighter than one of the larger GS bikes or an Africa Twin though, and can be made better off road if you want to spend some $$ (Rally Raid is great here). If bikes like this, the CRF250L Rally, and the possibly, someday, maybe coming soon Tenere 700 sell as well as they have been, we may see another shift back down to more middleweight fare. Maybe.
                Matt J., Appleton
                2015 Yamaha R3
                Instagram- @motomatt_r3

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                • #9
                  Talking to a BMW rep, they expected the G 310 GS to be sold primarily to beginners. But that hasn't been the market at all. The market has been experienced older riders who don't want a fat overpowered pig. (me in other words hahah) With the normal huge ADV bikes, one wrong move with the throttle and the rear tire digs a trench you can't get out of.

                  The CRF450L is a curious bike with some unknowns. It's built on the CRF450X engine which is pretty much full race and it has very few concessions to longevity or maintenance. But if not racing it and putting around street style, how long does it last? 300 hours? 500? Honda specifies a valve adjustment interval of 1800 miles which is very weird. I would expect it to need a top end long before a valve adjustment in that case. Hopefully it doesn't have titanium valves. Older CRF's like my 2004 only lasted 20 hours before needing a new top end and then it got stainless valves like everyone else did to get some life out of their bikes.

                  The strike against the CRF450L is that people are basically paying a huge premium for the right to be street legal. Couple year old CRF's in good condition with a few hours are a dime a dozen. How bad do I really want to hop on a street legal CRF450, head to the industrial part of town on a Sunday afternoon and ride my bike off deserted truck loading docks? I could probably do without that.

                  At the motorcycle show I was drooling on the CRF450L as much at Matt was drooling on the Street Triple, hahah.
                  John K - Appleton

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Zaph View Post

                    At the motorcycle show I was drooling on the CRF450L as much at Matt was drooling on the Street Triple, hahah.
                    I had to mark my territory...


                    I think I read the 450L has steel valves. So if true, that should help.

                    Matt J., Appleton
                    2015 Yamaha R3
                    Instagram- @motomatt_r3

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                    • #11
                      I personally am hoping the 450L doesn't sell well and a few deals are available in a few years. I do want the street legal, as you need to be street legal to ride any of the ATV trails that i live in the middle off. Plus legal for me to ride where ever i want around the farm. Some good threads about it on advrider if you can pick through the thousands of stupid opinions by people who don't actually own one or ever intend to own one, the people that do have them are putting out some good info. People who ACTUALLY own one are so far loving them from what i see. Hopefully they pile the miles on them and figure out how reliable they actually are. Reports are that is is VERY rideable with not a ton of vibration and such on road.

                      It can also have more weight stripped off of it then say a KTM500exc. And i suspect will be cheaper to own long term then a KTM. Which is why it excites me. KTM still has more power ( i suspect aftermarket will have that sorted soon, so they will be very close.) and 450L will still be a bit heavier when stripped down apples to apples. But they will be very close, and like i said, i suspect the Honda will be cheaper long term, time will tell.

                      I sat on one at my dealer, was pleasantly surprised that i could easily put a foot down.
                      Farm to Table Beef, Made Simple. Pasture Raised Beef, from our farm shipped to your door: www.scholzefamilybeef.com

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