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Was Rossi ever really the GOAT?

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  • Was Rossi ever really the GOAT?

    It's rainy, I'm bored, and feel like stiring the pot a bit.

    Was Rossi every really the GOAT? Or did he just not have much real competition for awhile? Max? Roberts JR? Hayden? (RIP) Come on, who else did he face? Im trying to find a list of who else was racing at that time, and was making much if any impact. If Stoner, Lorenzo, Marquez had come in at the same time as Rossi, he would have won, maybe 1 championship...or zero?

    Stoner could ride a bike no one else could ride, even Rossi himself couldn't ride that thing. If he is the GOAT, shouldn't he have been able to win a single race on a bike that someone else won a championship on? At least win one race on it if you are the GOAT. I loved Stoner. I loved that he didn't give a flying f$%k about what anyone thought about what he did or said, just wanted to go out and thrash a bike. SO refreshing when other riders are running PR campaigns all the time. Raw talent on Stoner was just off the charts...yeah he had other issues. But if you had to throw anyone rider on a bike for one race with no set up? I'm taking Stoner.

    Rossi is good at the physiological warfare, no doubt. But Marquez even seems to have him there, I mean Marquez got under Rossi's skin so bad Rossi KICKED HIM in a race.

    And can you ever really be the GOAT if you aren't retired before the next GOAT comes along? Marquez is an absolute legend. I will admit i used to not like him, but now i just enjoy the show. We are so blessed in MotoGP to have so many that are so great racing at one time.

    The last few years have been the absolute golden era of racing. Most of the legends of the past wouldn't even make the grid in today's MotoGP, and that is a fact.

    I am super bummed we never got to see Stoner Vs Marquez, that would have been epic.

    And i wish Danny Pedrosa could win a championship. By all accounts a class act guy, almost untouchable at his best, but always so unlucky with injury. Maybe the best rider to never win a championship?

    Someone has to generate some controversy. Feel free to throw fruit at me!
    Farm to Table Beef, Made Simple. Pasture Raised Beef, from our farm shipped to your door: www.scholzefamilybeef.com

  • #2
    Casey Stoner had the GOAT quote to Rossi: "Your ambition outweighed your talent."



    Personally I love it when one of the underdogs wins a race. Like in '16 when Jack Miller got 1st. I like to see Crutchlow up there. He's doing great this year. Actually, put him on a full factory bike with full factory support and I think he becomes a full fledged alien.

    Next year is going to be a total hilarious shitshow with Lorenzo and Marky Mark on Honda Vs Rossi.

    BTW, for everyone's reading pleasure, a scathing article about MotoGP at Silverstone UK getting cancelled because the repavement job there sucked in the rain.
    John K - Appleton

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    • #3
      That was a great quote, and for Stoner to say it to the guy many (most?) considered the GOAT makes it even funnier.

      How about Lorenzo lately on the Ducati?

      I just root for good racing, a good battle. And i have more appreciation for enjoying greatness in the moment. Marquez is just something else, also the first rider i got to witness from 125's and up. He could have went strait from 125's to MotoGP. Enjoy this show...probably won't happen again for a long time!

      The Honda thing could be interesting next year...not sure how that will play out, they have very different riding styles, and i can't see honda wanting to develop the bike for Lorenzo over Mark.

      My biggest disappointment in MotoGP was what happened to Spies. I still feel there is more to that story, can you name another rider in even remotely recent history that has had more strange mechanical issues then him? I mean it literally was like Yamaha was TRYING to hurt him. Some day i would love to learn the whole story, cause there was something fishy there, or just gross gross incompetence.
      Farm to Table Beef, Made Simple. Pasture Raised Beef, from our farm shipped to your door: www.scholzefamilybeef.com

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      • #4
        Originally posted by helmsman View Post
        The last few years have been the absolute golden era of racing. Most of the legends of the past wouldn't even make the grid in today's MotoGP, and that is a fact.

        I am super bummed we never got to see Stoner Vs Marquez, that would have been epic.

        And i wish Danny Pedrosa could win a championship. By all accounts a class act guy, almost untouchable at his best, but always so unlucky with injury. Maybe the best rider to never win a championship?

        Someone has to generate some controversy. Feel free to throw fruit at me!
        No way is that first statement true. There are so many electronics on these bikes compared to the peaky 500s that preceded them. To compare the riders of today, who rely on those electronics, to those who relied on only their right hand is like comparing apples and cookies. I am betting if the greats from the past were in their prime and on the current machinery it would be one hell of a race.

        While I can take into consideration that Rossi possibly is not the GOAT, he is still winning and placing really well against Marquez and Lorenzo at 39 years old. Yamaha has some real problems with rear traction currently though which has been holding him and Vinales back.

        I really like Danny too. I think his biggest problem has been that he can't get any heat into the tires. The bike is set up for Marquez' style of riding, super aggressive. Danny, being lighter and smoother on the bike just can't get heat into the tires to get traction.

        As for Marquez, he is an ass. He still rides dangerously at times and is willing to risk other peoples safety if he feels it will benefit him. Just look at what he did in Argentina and at CotA. He should have been forced to start at the back of the grid for his next race or suspended. Of course, Rossi was probably just as big of an ass at that age. I root for Dovi, Danny, and Zarco. I wouldn't mind seeing Rossi win one more title, but that is just because he is an old man and it would be funny to see him beat all the guys, literally, half his age.
        Like me on Facebook at Yellow Duck Racing
        LB Photography, Apex Custom Coating, Track Graphix, Spears Racing

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Zaph View Post
          Casey Stoner had the GOAT quote to Rossi: "Your ambition outweighed your talent."



          Personally I love it when one of the underdogs wins a race. Like in '16 when Jack Miller got 1st. I like to see Crutchlow up there. He's doing great this year. Actually, put him on a full factory bike with full factory support and I think he becomes a full fledged alien.

          Next year is going to be a total hilarious shitshow with Lorenzo and Marky Mark on Honda Vs Rossi.

          BTW, for everyone's reading pleasure, a scathing article about MotoGP at Silverstone UK getting cancelled because the repavement job there sucked in the rain.
          Crutchlow is on, pretty much, the same equipment as Marquez. The only thing that has been different in their bikes recently is that Marquez has a carbon fiber swingarm and Crutchlows doesn't. That is just a matter of time though until they get one manufactured for him.
          Like me on Facebook at Yellow Duck Racing
          LB Photography, Apex Custom Coating, Track Graphix, Spears Racing

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Capitalview View Post

            No way is that first statement true. There are so many electronics on these bikes compared to the peaky 500s that preceded them. To compare the riders of today, who rely on those electronics, to those who relied on only their right hand is like comparing apples and cookies. I am betting if the greats from the past were in their prime and on the current machinery it would be one hell of a race.

            While I can take into consideration that Rossi possibly is not the GOAT, he is still winning and placing really well against Marquez and Lorenzo at 39 years old. Yamaha has some real problems with rear traction currently though which has been holding him and Vinales back.

            I really like Danny too. I think his biggest problem has been that he can't get any heat into the tires. The bike is set up for Marquez' style of riding, super aggressive. Danny, being lighter and smoother on the bike just can't get heat into the tires to get traction.

            As for Marquez, he is an ass. He still rides dangerously at times and is willing to risk other peoples safety if he feels it will benefit him. Just look at what he did in Argentina and at CotA. He should have been forced to start at the back of the grid for his next race or suspended. Of course, Rossi was probably just as big of an ass at that age. I root for Dovi, Danny, and Zarco. I wouldn't mind seeing Rossi win one more title, but that is just because he is an old man and it would be funny to see him beat all the guys, literally, half his age.
            Almost none of the greats in the past would have had the physical fitness needed to ride the bikes now. In the same way that the athletes of years past can't compare with athletes today. Everything has improved from fitness to training to diets, etc etc. People get hung up on traction control like it saves everything, it doesn't. People forget that you have to ride the bike to the limit to even get the electronics set close to right, it isn't get on a bike with perfect electronics and whack the throttle wide open. Hell set up is probably 10 times as hard now, and more things to fiddle with to get you into the weeds. Average person goes slower with electronics, not faster. How many more set up options do they have now? You are going to tell me the modern rider doesn't have to be WAY smarter to figure all of that out as opposed to a guy who had like 3 adjustments to make?

            Number of crashes per rider per year is HIGHER now then when it has ever been. https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...7-1126-crashes Because EVERYONE is having to ride on the limit ALL OF THE TIME. As the competition is so much better today. But you are right, there is no real way to prove this. Which is why is makes such great debate.

            Rossi was an ass, and has ran multiple people off track and crashed out people through the years. For some reason he is loved and it is just "competitiveness" for him....everyone else is dangerous, lol
            Farm to Table Beef, Made Simple. Pasture Raised Beef, from our farm shipped to your door: www.scholzefamilybeef.com

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            • #7
              Hell i bet 1/2 of the old great couldn't stand up to the microscope the modern front running rider is under. Every modern athlete is miles better then athletes from the past in every sport. Why would racing be any different? The only real argument you could make is the old timers could adapt if they grew up now. But as they were, they don't compare in any sport.
              Farm to Table Beef, Made Simple. Pasture Raised Beef, from our farm shipped to your door: www.scholzefamilybeef.com

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              • #8
                You forget to mention the reason everyone has to push so hard is because of spec electronics and spec tires. The bikes are so much closer to each other now than in the past riders have to push everything to the limit. That doesn't change that it took a huge amount of skill to control a bike with just your butt and right wrist than being able to rely on the back up of electronics and much improved tire, frame, suspension, engine, and fueling technology. Plus, the teams have gotten huge compared to before. Now you have nutritionists, physical therapist, massage therapists, and trainers at the riders disposal. Not only that, the safety technology has also significantly improved. Riders are suffering less injuries than before. When they are injured, they usually have less severe injuries than before and have much more advanced procedures for coming back from injuries than those that came before them.

                Give those things to riders of the past and put them in their prime all on similar machinery and you will be able to see one hell of a race.

                And, if you think traction control isn't a big deal, go watch the races when Honda first came out with their big bang engine. No one could touch them. Doohan still came in second for the 1992 season even though he missed 5 races from complications with his broken leg.

                To be clear, I am not saying the riders of the past are hands down better. They did do things with a lot less though. Often in more dangerous track conditions. Sometimes severely injured.
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                • #9
                  I think you are kind of making my point though. There were periods in time where the bike could make a MASSIVE difference for the rider as one team came up with something new. I can't remember where, but i once read that Giacomo Agostini and others often had a bike that was miles ahead of most of the field. Now, no one has a bike that is light years ahead. Would Giacomo won as much if most of the field was on similar bikes? We have 4 of the top 10 winners of all time on the grid right now, on bikes that are pretty comparable to each other. Was there ever a case where any of the greats from the past faced that kind of competition? (and Stoner is in the top 10 as well)

                  I won't argue that it is much safer today, that tracks are better, bikes are better, ect. But i actually think that goes to further my point. How much of racing in the past was the guy willing to take the biggest chances on risky tracks, NOT the guy most talented? Or how many great riders were killed/badly injured and forced to quit, before they could really challenge to prove they were great? Look at Isle of Mann and other road races...who is willing to take the biggest risk can have as much of an effect on who wins as who has the most talent. Today all the riders know they can take big risks, so it comes down to who is more talented most times. Can you ride as hard when you have to have one hand on the clutch at all times hoping your engine doesn't seize? Probably not. Does it prove you are a better rider if you had to ride like that? I don't think so.

                  I am not saying that the greats of the past weren't skilled, they were obviously the best for their time. What sort of G-forces was a rider generating in 1960, compared to now? Just the physicality needed to do that for the length of the race is much greater then it was in the past.

                  I honestly don't think the greats from the past would fair that well. Of course the modern rider would look at their tracks and safety gear, and say Fuck no! I won't argue that either.

                  I'm not saying traction control isn't a big deal, obviously if it didn't work no one would use it. But to think it is this crutch that makes riding a bike easy is wrong i think. Like i said, i bet it makes set up 10 or 100 times more complex. Many many a rider has gone backwards with traction control, not forwards.

                  Of course there is no way to prove any of this, which is why it is fun to argue about. But name a sport where the athlete today isn't miles ahead of the athlete from 40-50 years ago? Why would racing be different?
                  Farm to Table Beef, Made Simple. Pasture Raised Beef, from our farm shipped to your door: www.scholzefamilybeef.com

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                  • #10
                    I do agree with the point about modern athletes. Watch any old sporting event now (as opposed to when/if you watched it "new"). I like watching strongman events. It isn't just that the men are absurdly massive now, but how they got there. Watch the first few Worlds Strongest Man comps (late 70s) and you'll see NFL players participating, and mentioning how teams just started introducing weightlifting to their training. Top level professional American Football players, who didn't lift weights! That's completely unthinkable in the modern era.

                    Go to moto racing again, and even the kids in the Junior classes are working out regularly. They're not just riders, they're athletes. Regardless of any of the tech changes, modern riders are honing their bodies and minds, specifically for the sport. Roger Hayden is retiring and he lists being able to eat like a normal person as part of it (smallish part). Other athletes have said the same. Joe Roberts recently had an interview where he mentioned something similar, but added he has to be careful even with his workouts because he can't gain weight. Not just fat, he can't gain much muscle. Setup is sensitive, and in the Moto GP paddock those tiny fractions matter.

                    In any sport it's pretty impossible to have a true GOAT. Anyone is only great for their time, they'll get passed up, as will that person, as will...

                    Still fun, though.
                    Matt J., Appleton
                    2015 Yamaha R3
                    Instagram- @motomatt_r3

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